First reactions. Telephone interview, October 2024

“Get up, you need to get up!” 

James Robinson discovered he was a 2024 economic sciences laureate when his wife, Maria Angélica Bautista, woke him up. In this call he talks about the root causes of poverty and how to build the types of political structures that enhance prosperity: “Inclusive institutions are not created by well-meaning elites. They’re created by people who fight for their rights.”

Interview transcript

James Robinson: Hello?

Adam Smith: Hello, is this James Robinson?

JR: Yes. Speaking.

AS: Hi, this is Adam Smith from the website of the Nobel Prize.

JR: Okay. Yes. Thanks for calling. I got your message. Sorry, my phone was switched off.

AS: Not at all. Not at all. How did you learn about the prize?

JR: My wife woke me up. One of her friends texted her and she woke me up and told me.

AS: It’s a nice wake up message. What did she actually say?

JR: “You’ve won the Nobel Prize,” I think. No, no, I think she said, “Get up. You need to get up.” [Laughs] I think that’s what she said. And I said, “Why?” She said, “You’ve won the Nobel Prize.”

AS: That’ll get you out of bed, I guess. And then I suppose there hasn’t been a second’s rest since then?

JR: No. The journalists from the University of Chicago came round at 6:30, so I just had time to get in the shower and make some coffee. Yes.

AS: You spend so much time in South America, Sub-Saharan Africa. I suppose the news could just as easily have caught you there.

JR: If it would have been in the summer, you would have caught me there, but yeah, I’m teaching at the moment, so I’m here in Chicago. Yes.

AS: So what can you say broadly about why there is such a disparity between poorer nations and the rest of the world?

JR: Well, I think that’s an outcome of a long historical process. But in our work, what we’ve identified are these institutional and political differences between developed and underdeveloped countries, and the way in which there’s enormous differences in how inclusive the societies are in terms of the opportunities and incentives they give people. So, you know, our work is focused on trying to show how these different institutional structures create poverty or prosperity.

AS: Your work has looked at the sources of those institutional structures, and especially their roots in colonialism. But do you understand, in a way, the intractability of the system, how difficult it is to change? Is that something that is …

JR: Well, that’s something we have looked at. I think, you know, there’s enormous persistence in the world, but you also see examples of transition from, what we call extractive to inclusive institutions, that countries that manage to change. I mean, look, every prosperous country today, historically, was extractive. Think of the United States, you know think of the history of slavery and the expropriation of indigenous people. And there’s a lot of extraction historically in this country. And there was a struggle to create more inclusive institutions and a more inclusive society. And that’s true of, you know, it’s true of my own country, of Britain. And so, there have been transitions and we’ve tried to study those too.

AS: I mean, I know it’s ridiculous to try and summarize things in just a phrase or two, but what would, what would be the key for societies in thinking about changing from being extractive to inclusive?

JR: The key to that transition is just really collective action by citizens, by people who suffer under extractive institutions and inequality and marginalization. So I think if you look at that history, think about this, think about the civil rights movement. That’s a fantastic example of people getting organized collectively to fight for their rights, to fight against extractive economic and political institutions in the United States in the 1950’s and 1960’s.

AS: So it’s really, it’s a bottom up change then.

JR: I think that’s right. I don’t think, you know, inclusive institutions are not created by well-meaning elites. They’re created by people who fight for their rights and fight for a different vision of society.

AS: Nicely said. I just wanted to ask you very briefly about your relationship with your co-laureates. You obviously all have a very close working relationship. What is it that makes it go so well?

JR: Well, we’re all very close friends. I think we’re all good at different things, and we all respect each other very much. And we just have fun talking about ideas and thinking about the world. And we’re all, I don’t know, you know?

AS: Yeah. I know that all sorts is going on around you. Thank you very much indeed. Many, many congratulations. And thanks for talking to me.

JR: Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. 

AS: Bye. 

JR: Thank you.

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