“This is a story about that freedom has no borders and human rights values are universal”

Telephone interview with Oleksandra Matviichuk, Head of Center for Civil Liberties, on 8 October 2022. The interviewer is Adam Smith, Chief Scientific Officer of Nobel Prize Outreach.

Oleksandra Matviichuk: Hello?

Adam Smith: Hello, this is Adam Smith.

OM: Hello, Adam. Nice to hear you.

AS: Oh, it’s lovely to hear you. Thank you very much for making time for me. Of course, congratulations on the award of the Nobel Prize to the CCL.

OM: Thank you.

AS: So what message do you hope that the award of this Nobel Prize sends to the world?

OM: This award have two dimensions. The first dimension is connecting with award to not only to Ukrainian human rights organisation, Center for Civil Liberties, but to the whole Ukrainian people who are fighting for freedom in all senses. And second dimension is award for human rights defenders who, regardless of their authoritarian regimes, tries to build horizontal ties between each other in order to protect freedom and human rights in our part of the world where Russia try to occupy new territories.

AS: So I mean, I suppose it’s true to say that the current situation would not have arisen, or might not have arisen, had people taken your and others’ battles for the defense of human rights more seriously in the past? Do you think that’s true?

OM: Yes. And I hope that this award and general situation, general challenges which we face, help us all to understand that the connection between peace and human rights is inevitable. Human rights is the same important issue of the security as military defense or economical stability. And each country which systematically ignores their obligation in human rights field provide the threats for the whole world. And second, I hope that this award, which is provided in the context of ongoing Russian aggression against Ukraine will be a good stimulus for UN and state participants of UN to important historical steps. What do I mean? For current moment, the whole international system of business security lies in ruin, like Ukrainian Mariupol, and I believe that UN and international communities have to launch the reform of UN in order to create a guarantee for each countries, and their citizens, regardless of whether they are part of some military blocks or their military capacity, guarantees of peace.

AS: How important is it to you that this award unites defenders of human rights across the region? So not only in Ukraine, but of course the award also goes to the defense of human rights in Belarus and in Russia.

OM: I know these people from Viasna now and from Memorial for years, Ales Bialiatski, Valiantsin Stefanovich, Marfa Rabkova from Viasna, or Alei Karlov, Svetlana Gannushkina, Alexander Cherkasov, Sergei Davidis from Memorial, and others. They are our colleagues. And for years we together struggling with them against common threats. And I think we have not to see the stories like this Soviet narrative about brothers nations. This story is about something else. This story about old dissident motto, ‘za našu i vašu svobodu’ (За нашу і вашу свободу), ‘for ours and yours freedom’. This is a story about a joint resistance against common evil. This is a story about that freedom has no borders and human rights values are universal.

AS: This is a story about civil society, isn’t it?

OM: Exactly.

AS: What would you say to those who feel concerned but powerless in the system they find themselves in?

OM: All my twenty years experience of defense, freedom and human rights shows me that common people have a much greater impact than they can even imagine. And massive mobilisation of the common people can change the world history quicker than UN intervention. I can tell one example from our lives. I was a coordinator of Euromaidan SOS inititive during Revolution of Dignity, we united several thousands of people to provide legal and other assistance to persecuted protestors, to people who were beaten, who were arrested, tortured, accused in fabricated criminal administrative charge, abducted and then relatives of killed people. And this was a time when we fight again the whole state machine because paramilitary group coordinate the efforts with police, police work together with court, their president, the government and majority of parliament were against us. They want to liquidate peaceful protest even physically. And in this regard, it was very easy to feel helplessness and to say that we can do nothing.

But because our volunteers, our lawyers, fight very honesty for each person, for each procedures measures, it leads to unexpectable result. We suddenly start to work not only on legal level, but on symbolical level. On Maidan each people know that there is no guarantee. You can be beaten, you can be arrested, you can be even killed. But there are people who will fight for you, who will fight for your rights, who will never leave you alone. And this understanding provides a coverage to continue the fight. And let my lessons learn from this story is that in many part of the world, human rights defenders, they’re not working in human rights field. They’re fighting for human rights. And sometimes because of the size of challenges this fight, it seems that they have no sense. But we have to continue our fight honestly, and result will unexpectedly be achieved.

AS: Thank you. Last question. When things look very bleak indeed, what gives you hope?

OM: Ordinary people. I can explain. Now we are faced with full scale Russian invasion. And our center continue to document war crimes, what we have done for eight years. But the level of pain is unbearable. Like sometimes I feel myself that we are documenting pain, which burned us out, but parallel, I see and feel the huge wave of solidarity among the people in Ukraine and abroad. And ordinary people start to do unordinary things. And this energy can change a lot. During Revolution of Dignity we had this image, a drop in the ocean. It mean that okay, my efforts maybe is too modest to overcome the whole challenge, but without my efforts, nothing will change.

AS: Thank you very much indeed. Thank you for taking time to talk to us and I shall let you and your colleagues get on with your work now. But this was an important and wonderful call. So thank you very much for taking time.

OM: Thank you, Adam. Have a good day.

AS: You too. Bye bye.

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Listen to the interview